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Poster: Capt. Cook Date: Apr 13, 2009 8:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: "The Dead" are Leaderless

It really hit homelast night listening to that seemingly endless rambling jam into Jack Straw in Greensboro that this band has No Leader. The vocals are actually pretty good. The drumming is too over the top, but mickey is going to be heard, come hell or high water. Weir's playing has become almost etheral. It's very hard to place him. Jerry always knew how to start a tune and end a tune. His licks became like cement, like a foundation for them to build upon. This band floats through these tunes without anyone to call them home. Jerry's role was a lot like Miles's, directing traffic, right to the point. This band searches for the point. We will listen on...

breaks my heart kindof.....

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Poster: UncleBruce Date: Apr 14, 2009 11:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

I know a lot has already been said but I believe you cannot listen to the dead without comparing them to the grateful, it is automatic and impossible not, to which is why it's tough to listen to.

They sometimes at there best are like a larger 747 burning down the runway but never lifting off the ground and soaring.

Bobby's habit of speaking lyrics? enough already.

I also think it sort of cheapens the whole deal when they play dark star all the time or create these set lists that are a "best of" concert. A good part of shows was the lame or simple songs tucked in here or there that made the good ones shine even more. Plus the whole caution, caboose, eleven stuff also seems to cheapen the originals or at least the breakouts are $ motivated to keep interest.

It seems like it's a somewhat calculated marketing machine of our favs.

they aren't terrible just feels like like they are trying to squeeze dry the magic a little in order to make cash.

they do have some nice jams (leaderless ones) and I will listen out of curiosity from time to time.

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Poster: sunmonster Date: Apr 14, 2009 5:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Somehow, this post reminds me of when I saw Billy and Brent's Band in '84 or '85 (Kokomo?) - (at the Ritz in NYC in case anyone's keeping score).

They played Dark Star, and I remember thinking, "OK, they're playing Dark Star...but... this isn't really the Grateful Dead playing Dark Star, it's Billy, Brent, and two guys I don't really know. But man it would be cool if it were the Dead playing Dark Star..."

But for what it was worth, I enjoyed the show and had a good time.

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Poster: whirlwind dreamer 65-95 Date: Apr 14, 2009 5:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

here's the leader of the band at work http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbwxD5sVSRY&;feature=related this tunes for you>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0J77CRMeTA

This post was modified by whirlwind dreamer 65-95 on 2009-04-15 00:59:12

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Apr 14, 2009 12:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

"I know a lot has already been said but I believe you cannot listen to the dead without comparing them to the grateful, it is automatic and impossible not, to which is why it's tough to listen to.

they do have some nice jams (leaderless ones) and I will listen out of curiosity from time to time. "


You know what?? That about PERFECTLY sums it up for me! Very nicely said and extremely accurate thought imho.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Apr 14, 2009 6:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

The proverbial Nail has been hit on the head.

While Warren is undoubtably an extraordinary musician, in Dead context (this is all personal opinion by the way) he seems unable to structure a lead with a clear beginning, middle and end. The musicians with this capability are few and far between (our Fat Man, Clapton and Gilmour are in this category). Warren's leads seem to start in the middle and end at the beginning. And if your "front man" is not setting a clear course, its hard for everyone else to follow along. Perhaps with more shows under his belt this may change, but I'm not holding my breath. The music is still enjoyable, no doubt, but I'm now a little happier that I didn't shell out big bucks to see this go round.

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Poster: cush212 Date: Apr 14, 2009 4:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Speaking of leaderless... How is this Forum surviving without you???

All is well so far.

On track now, I never was a Warren fan in recent incarnations. Preferred Jimmy Herring much, much more...

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Poster: dogsinapile! Date: Apr 14, 2009 1:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Great to hear from you. Your input is missed around here.
I too am glad I didn't shill out the $ for these shows. They're milking it for sure...

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Apr 14, 2009 2:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Kind words much appreciated.

Given recent events are now limiting my time in these parts, I find myself reserving comments to only those threads that really strike a chord with me. But have no doubt, the music plays on.

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Poster: dogsinapile! Date: Apr 14, 2009 2:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Hang in there. Not sure what you're going thru, but everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, comes and goes. I have been put into an opposite situation where I have had too much time on my hands to check out this place - third major hip surgery in the last two years has kept me home since mid-February. But all is looking up as I go to the doctor tomorrow and hope to be released back into the real world. Never thought I would want to be a part of THAT!
I do mean that your input is missed. I always looked forward to your TDIH recommendations as I gather we had a similar experience back in the day and your posts are usually spot on.
Take care and always remember...
NOTHIN LEFT TO DO BUT SMILE SMILE SMILE

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Poster: AshesRising Date: Apr 17, 2009 2:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

dogsinapile! I sincerely hope and pray that your meeting with the physician went better than expected. A broken body is the only thing in this world that I understand ....the good news is that from your post it appears that your Spirit has remained strong despite your ordeal with the physical woes. Keep the faith! (and that is not meant to be a cliche.)

May the healing power of the music be with you,
--- AshesRising

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Poster: dogsinapile! Date: Apr 17, 2009 3:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Thanks for the kind words.
The doctor visit went well and I am returning to work this morning. The last couple of months have been a reall test, but I have made it thru with patience and the help of my lovely wife. I appreciate all the support shown by you kind folks. It has meant a lot and many times given me something to smile about when I needed it most.
"The strangest of places if you look at it right."
Hope all is well with you AshesRising. Great to see you posting.

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Poster: AshesRising Date: Apr 17, 2009 9:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

dogsinapile! Thanks for the update; I am very happy things have improved ...just don't try to do too much too fast now that you are back at work...

--- AshesRising

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Poster: amosearle Date: Apr 14, 2009 3:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Since this thread seems to have become the review thread of Sunday, I'll put in my one cent, since the other has been pretty well covered here already. I am glad I went. Had a really good time with friends I don't get to see much. Tedious noodling and extended lack of focus seems to be a new "jam " definition and I wonder if the generations younger are being marketed with that new understanding. I was impressed with Warren's effort more than I expected, and they made a point of throwing him out front and making his case early in the show. I just got back home after a Monday detour to Asheville,NC on the way home. It was clear to me that I wasn't at a grateful dead show, so when they reached back a bit for new potato caboose, I was pleasantly surprised. Still, I'm in agreement with most here. Will shell out again? Not unless the hippie girls are out and the friends gather to make the event about more than the Dead.

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: Apr 14, 2009 4:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

You're right. I noticed that just from sampling the downloads here on the archive. Jerry would have played at least one song, by the time these guys busted into the Music Never Stopped. Same story with the introduction to Shakedown Street. I never tried the ret of it because these guys just aren't focused enough for my tastes...

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Poster: elkdog Date: Apr 14, 2009 4:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

That's how I felt about their last 2 tours- they sound like a good band, but not one I'd end up obsessed about. A fun night to be sure, but every jam kind of feels the same, with less dynamism to the music. I felt that way about some of the Phil shows when he had Warren Haynes and Jimmy Herring holding down the guitar spot. My big confession here is that I really only like Warren in the Gov't Mule context- in ABB I'm always waiting for Derek Trucks' solos, and I like Phil's band now better than the 2001-2005 incarnation; actually I love Phil's band now.

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Poster: BobsShortShorts Date: Apr 14, 2009 5:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

I enjoyed Jackie`s jams with Phil...esp a few franklins I heard...the young fellow is a interesting picker....

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Poster: Muundo Date: Apr 14, 2009 8:00am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

I will be the first to admit that I too love the current version of Phil's band...mainly because of Jackie. I was really sorry when I saw that Jackie wasn't going to be a part of "The Dead" tour.

First of all Jackie's vocals on Jerry's songs makes so much sense compared to either Phil or Bob. Secondly, I think Jackie would have brought a freshness to the group which I haven't quite heard yet in either the Inauguration show (terrible), the Taxi Cab Shows (gimmicky) or Greensboro (brief flashes of possibility).

To compare The Dead (circa 2009) to the Grateful Dead with Jerry is absurd. Its just not a fair or reasonable comparison. I do feel that the boys need to do something though to make this FRESH. Otherwise this will be nothing more than a nostalgia trip. Jackie would have been a means to that FRESHNESS but I still have faith that these shows WILL have their special moments...just manage your expectations, this is not Spring '77!

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Poster: whirlwind dreamer 65-95 Date: Apr 14, 2009 12:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

maybe they should ask john kadlecik of dark star orchestra he has the grateful dead songs down packed the leads also!! mmmm??? its still early in the tour i'm sure the dead train wil be rolling hard and high!!in the next few weeks!! http://www.darkstarorchestra.net/NEWSITE/HTML/dso.php?sec=band&;cat=1&id=1

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Poster: sambonk2 Date: Apr 14, 2009 1:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

I dont think they want to "mimic"Jerry...John does a great job going the Garcia thing, and sometimes jaw dropping.All though I agree that Warren is not the Answer,Steve Kimock would make Plenty of sense,but he does not sing lead.

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Poster: liranfa Date: Apr 14, 2009 2:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Remind me not to invite any of you to my next show. I will say this......enjoy what you got while you got it. You think Phillies fans miss Harry Calas today? Phil Lesh is 69 and the rest aren't far behind.

....and if they wanted to get a Garcia clone, there's HUNDREDS out there. I've played with many of them.

I thought I was done but reading some of you who are actually complaining about the jams between songs reminds me of the old days....remember shows where you would get a Truckin'>Black Peter>Around>JBGoode finish? All I heard was "They never jam anymore"......lmao.

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Poster: L.A. Women Date: Apr 14, 2009 7:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

If this is the last tour they do they should have found someway to get Hornsby out there...

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Poster: liranfa Date: Apr 14, 2009 10:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Now that's something I agree with. :)

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Poster: Ole Uncle John Date: Apr 14, 2009 11:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

If there are any fans of 'The Dead' who think the criticism, comparison with The Grateful Dead and pining for Jerry is too much,Why not try posting on the Archive's Live Music forum.

After all you ARE in The Grateful Dead section now ;)

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Poster: pequastogy Date: Apr 14, 2009 6:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

I think Bobby does a great job leading Ratdog and Phil does a great job with his band. Maybe they need to decide who should steer this ship. It seems they don't want to step on each other's toes. Until that ends, they will be leaderless.

Regarding the music, I think live music always has great possibility. I think they sounded good. I can't wait for Albany this weekend and the Garden next weekend. I'm not going to the shows to be a critic. I just want to catch some magic.

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Poster: ducats Date: Apr 14, 2009 4:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

take me to the leader of the band

and I miss sdh as well

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Poster: BongWzrd Date: Apr 14, 2009 9:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

All I can say is that Drumz w/ Keys>Space in the 2nd set was really cool....In fact that entire 2nd set was cool..

People will continue to bash The Dead and thats really sad..I would rather listen to this tour than anything Post Bruce that the Grateful Dead did.....Vince had the worst synth patches in music history and was not that great of a keys player to begin with.....And I love Jerry so much, but come on people, 92-95' he was really off his game and sounded pretty bad most nights(both singing and playing wise)...We gave Jerry a very long lesh towards the end because we loved him so much, but lets be realistic people..

Like the others above said, we can't compare The Dead to anyone but themselves, and in doing so, I think they sound pretty good...

When Phil smiles, I smile....

Can't wait for the show tonight!!!

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Poster: sambonk2 Date: Apr 14, 2009 1:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

I do respect your opinion and find all the info here worthwhile
There were some Gems until the bitter end...spring 1993 was very strong...A few June 1994 shows as well.We are not speaking Bad of the(new) Dead.We are all passionate about this thing call called Grateful.The boys are doing what they need to do and that's cool.The Spirit of the music will always be there from the New dead to the small clubs across the world that the dead's music rings true.I appreciate all the musicians that make up this new band.I am not looking for "Jerry Lite"I am looking for someone who can lead the band more like Jerry did.Warren Does not do that in this config.Gmule and the Bros....hell yes he does.....glad to see that you are enjoying the new direction

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Poster: squirrel barker Date: Apr 14, 2009 10:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Yeah,the little bit my helper and I listened to ,before starting work, was very loose and meandering.Which is weird since all those songs have a specific hook to pull us into the tune.I think Warren should have thrown it out since Bob tries to color and add movement with the rhythm.But I turned it off at the beginning of estimated.Although a buddy of mine called to say I missed a good time and show.But they're all great musicians Bob and Mickey included.To the Highest!

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Poster: Capt. Cook Date: Apr 14, 2009 10:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Awesome insights up here on this one - Also, I must admit it is very hard to judge these performances from these few AUD's we have posted. I am sure in the room the sound was quite rich and full. Its like they're still running the wishbone offense only they got no one to toss the ball. The set lists are almost insanely good. Cosmic Charlie>New Potato Caboose! Are you kidding me. I would have shit myself if they pulled that out during an Alpine or Shoreline run.

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Apr 14, 2009 1:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Jack Straw is still all I have listened to. They pulled it off. Yep, it's leaderless, but it does sound sweet tho. Phil's bass needs to be UPPED.

Phil and Warren need to get into some interplay - while Phil is turned up and doing off-beat take-offs in and out.

Dead+Perform+Greensboro+Coliseum+Complex+GPO0J30kkXbl.jpg

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Poster: sambonk2 Date: Apr 14, 2009 11:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Great stuff guys....I was trying to put into words on how I felt about the other ones and Dead..."no leader"..Perfect..Warren is a great great player..wrong situation for him.I am sure being there would make the experience a good one.The minime AUD here at the archive is a fine recording.Its not the recording..Its the lead guitar spot.I give all the Props to the boys for putting it out there for all of us and think its great that they want to stir the monster up a bit.Just thought that they would choose a Roster to win the Superbowl....not just make the playoffs

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Poster: L.A. Women Date: Apr 14, 2009 7:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

if they could get hornsby and kimock to come back it would make things much more interesting.

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Poster: Ole Uncle John Date: Apr 14, 2009 3:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

I had the same impression, even during the opener they sort of sounded like a local jam band, nice sound, tempo, but going nowhere. Warren's leads just meander. Weir's failure to remember lyrics takes away from it some as well.
Mickey's drumming is worse than usual in the recording, just listen to the machine like slamming during bridge on TMNS, blech!
Of course I thought the GD always sounded WAY better without Mickey, he's ruined many a '80's recording IMO.

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Poster: NJDEAD7 Date: Apr 14, 2009 7:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

All this comparing the band the band to what it was. Give it up, it will NEVER have the same sound as when Jerry was around - different pieces to the puzzle.
Stop the nay-saying, give them some time and enjoy the ride.

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Poster: Single Malt Date: Apr 14, 2009 8:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Ditto. Enjoy the music and if your going to the shows enjoy the atmosphere.

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Poster: janetthehippie Date: Apr 14, 2009 6:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Well, I believe you are right. I'll attempt to explain it the way I think it goes.

Phil's a superb musician, but can't sing, so that leaves only his bass instrument. Although he is a master bass player, the instrument by itself can never break out of the boundaries for which it is meant. (Sting can sing and play the bass). That makes it very tough to successfully lead in Rock and Roll; but immeasurably important to follow a comparatively gifted musician (Jerry) to make a unique sound.

Bob's a one-off "front man" lead; a pretty boy (well not so much any more) that rock bands require to communicate the sexual element of the music. That worked well when there was a leader like Jerry- and I think Jerry recognized this element was needed very early on. Come on- the other guys, including Jerry, never had that piece of it.

But as Bob may be good looking, he's really not an expert musician, as he's unable to communicate a brand new message, lead the other guys into new jam territories, and punctuate it at the end. Although he certainly had his fine moments following Jerry's leads.

Billy and Mickey can't lead because they are drummers and can't sing lead. (Phil Collins plays drums, piano and sings).

Warren and Jeff can't lead THIS BAND because they are not one of the core four; could never happen.

I guess the missing element, IF they continue to call the band "The Dead" and play only Grateful Dead music, is and always will be Jerry. I don't think they can ever get away from that. The dynamics are impossible to re-create within the context of "The Dead". That's not saying the music isn't enjoyable to listen to.



This post was modified by janetthehippie on 2009-04-14 13:02:28

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Poster: user unknown Date: Apr 14, 2009 9:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Yea. Have been since 8/9/95.

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Poster: tank_tuba Date: Apr 14, 2009 1:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

More like 3/8/73.

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Poster: dogsinapile! Date: Apr 14, 2009 1:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Right on!!!
Didn't Jerry say "That's not Pigpen, that's the Grateful Dead" ?!?

I do agree with the leaderless idea proposed here. The whole pre-song jam thing is VERY contrived and forced. The jam is pre-determined and doesn't come from any kind of inspiration.
Also, I think they're using the whole jam thing and the drums>space thing as a way to lengthen the shows, much as they did during the 93 thru 95 years. If you break each show down to the songs and the related jamming, the shows would be clocking in at less than two hours. You want me to pay over $100 for that? I got better things to do. Sorry if that offends anyone, but I am a GRATEFUL DEAD fan and this crap doesn't cut it.

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Poster: Solo Head Date: Apr 14, 2009 12:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

The GD were always reincarnating themselves throughout the years... It was a life lived...Pig dies, they move forward...the Sixtes ends, we move forward ...I'm Bored, lets take a break... the music is stagnant...bring it on Brent. What do all these have in common? Youthful Exuberance(sic)and Touring. This style of music that this band is trying to play has to be dissected, nurtured and seasoned by time. It cannot come about by 30 days rehearshing.

Also, if they want to continue to play Garcia/Hunter tunes they need to go out and find a singer and guitar player who has taken those songs into their soul and made them their own, and who will have the YOUTHFUL EXUBERANCE and balls to let(make) Bobby go back to what he does best.

A kinder and gentler Band is not what I'm looking for...

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Poster: pigpen_81 Date: Apr 15, 2009 12:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Glad someone had the intestinal fortitude to say it. I listened to the roseland show and felt the same way.
Warren's playing is great. He is not Jerry though.. and if he were to try to mimic Jerry I think I would resent it. The Band sounds great, but something that was so special is missing. I was so saddened after listening to the roseland show. I miss Jerry and listening to them without him, is for me, like ripping the scab off an old wound. I am really glad for those that never had a chance to see the band to be able to experience what is going on now. However,..for me it is not the same. I live about 2 hours from Worcester and aside from the ticket prices I have a sense of dread about going. Afraid I will be disappointed and greatly saddened. I want to go to see if any of the people I toured with will be there because for me that would be a real treat. But as far as going in to the show,.. I hesitate.
You really describe well what is missing. Maybe they will find something/someone to fill that need.
This post is not meant to demean the band or what they are trying to do. It's not meant to demean anyone going to see them, nor malign their experience at a show. It's just an expression of my sad feelings about Jerry's absence. :(

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Poster: tank_tuba Date: Apr 15, 2009 3:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

If you go looking for disappointment, you will most certainly find it.

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Poster: pigpen_81 Date: Apr 16, 2009 1:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

I think you missed my point Joe, and that's ok.

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Poster: tank_tuba Date: Apr 16, 2009 3:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Unfortunately, I think I've missed everyone's point.
Or I'm not willing to accept a viewpoint that differs from mine, which is a me problem.

Peace.
aj

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Poster: pigpen_81 Date: Apr 16, 2009 9:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

I don't even know what my point was at this point.. so don't feel bad ;) I just switched from the day shift to the night shift and don't know whether I am coming or going.

Peace backatcha'

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Poster: Purple Gel Date: Apr 14, 2009 1:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

I gotta agree!

Does there really need to be a rambling "jam" into every tune? I mean, what's wrong with starting Shakedown off with a strong definitive Bomb into the duh-duh-duh........duh-duh-duh-duh-duh (for lack of better words)?

It would be different if the jams were somehow unique, but to me, most of the jams seem aimless and pretty generic with a lot of noodling, no real direction and, most importantly, no intensity, which is one thing that Jerry almost always brought to the table.

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Poster: patkelleyPA Date: Apr 14, 2009 7:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Go figure- the band doesn't sound as good without Garcia. I still found that first show reasonably entertaining.

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Poster: janetthehippie Date: Apr 14, 2009 8:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

OK, the original post in this thread was that The Dead are leaderless; not whether the band are as good as The Grateful Dead or some question asking to compare the bands. I think we all know the answer to that.

IMO, although the band sounds good and are an enjoyable listen, they do not have a leader.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 14, 2009 3:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Hey, good job...seriously. And welcome.

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Poster: studog Date: Apr 14, 2009 7:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'The Dead' are Leaderless

Jeez, did anyone expect the Dead to sound as good as they did with Jerry, but wow, for the first time out they were pretty damn good. Compared to other groups going today they sounded great. Bobby was never my favorite, but to be fair people are going to complain no matter what he does......If they play all Bobby songs he is stealing the show and if they play Jerry songs they will be spoiling those songs. The jam on Franklin and the samson and deliah encore were really good

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